Episode 6 - The Habit of Self Care - Part 1

In this episode, using Charles Duhigg's "The Power of Habit" as a springboard,  Matt and Eric explore the importance of creating habits of self care. What makes us get stuck in negative behavior loops and how to break the cycle? Matt and Eric share some personal anecdotes about dealing with the same issue and explore the psychological research behind positive habit formation. 

Three things: 

1. Question to consider 
What habit loop are you currently experiencing in your own life?
Why have you become stuck in this loop?

2. Topic to explore 
Take a look at Duhigg's book "The Power of Habit" and explore the research behind 
habit formation

3. Action to take 
Once you realize what is behind your (negative) habits, think about 
how you you can break the loop. Try and pay attention to the specific triggers that make you enact your habit. 

Transcript

Matt Laginess: 0:05

Welcome to leading Well, a podcast exploring the ideas and practices that can help us all on our path of wellness. We believe that we can lead Well, when we live well.

Unknown: 0:35

Welcome, everybody, to another episode of leading Well, glad you're with us. We I don't really know when this is going to air but for us, it's just a few days after Thanksgiving.

Eric Cedo: 0:46

For some of you. It's a few days after Thanksgiving for me. It's a few days after Michigan beat Ohio State.

Matt Laginess: 0:52

Oh, yeah, that's a big, big thing. Yeah, I

Unknown: 0:54

get to do a whole a whole episode. Yeah. Just on the psychology of a fan. Yep. And the sense of, of achievement that I felt for something I literally had no participation at.

Matt Laginess: 1:11

Yes. I mean, you have actual stake in it.

Unknown: 1:14

I mean, sure. No one just go there. Yeah, this would be like we did this. Like you did not. I mean, you sat on the couch and yelled, yeah, you did not have to take on a 320 pound Cronenberg. But yes, it was.

Matt Laginess: 1:27

Unless that is what your Thanksgiving was. Yes.

Unknown: 1:34

Yeah, we just before we started the podcast, we're talking about fight or flight. Yeah. There you go. And how was your Thanksgiving? Oh, did you fight flight or freeze? Which I froze. So anyways, yes. So Thanksgiving, and holiday, Christmas, all of those things coming up. It's coming at our first snow. That stocks that was beautiful. Beautiful. So yeah. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for still listening after. After a couple episodes. And honestly, thank you, friends and family, everyone. Yeah, it's been listening in great comments and feedback. And yeah. It's always interesting when, especially when family, Snake commenting, and I say, I hope I'm treating everyone with respect. Yeah. It's it. and stuff. And I think, you know, the further we get into this, it, it only gets harder, because, like, right now everyone that is listening, for the most part has like a direct connection to us, for the most part. Absolutely. And they all have an idea of who we are, what we believe. And most of that is just them projecting that onto us. And so whenever there's any contradiction in that idea, that image, there's been some interesting engagements, like an I appreciate all of you that have like, interacted Yeah, via social media and stuff. Again, while I'm thinking of it, you know, throw some ideas at us what you'd like to hear us talk about, or something that has inspired you through this, you know, any of the episodes that you see, like on the Facebook page interacting, they're like, you know, what did you take out of this, you know, help us the more we hear from you, the better the community becomes. And I almost want to put that, you know, caveat at the beginning. This episode is entirely dramatized and Any resemblance to real life is completely coincidental. We

Matt Laginess: 3:39

make it up all

Unknown: 3:41

the names have been changed back the NSF. So if you think we're talking about you, we probably aren't.

Matt Laginess: 3:47

Unless we are less

Unknown: 3:52

Chances are though, we're just really talking about ourselves. Yes. Yes. Our projection. So um, Matt, you did a masterful job last episode commend you on the problem of self rekindling the relationship with ourselves. I did put on Facebook when I posted it. I think it may be the most important relationship some people I suppose, I get that good. One I've I've learned not to try and put weight or value on things like relationships, all relationships are important. Yeah. It's there's no hierarchy in terms of relationships, especially when it comes to spouse, your kids, family. I think the point I was trying to make is in terms of importance, when I am my healthiest version of me, it just makes all my relationships it flows out but if I have a great relationship with let's say my wife but a terrible Orisha, really simple myself, or let me say this, having a great relationship with your wife doesn't always necessarily improve your relationship with yourself. And then that relationship with your wife is actually built on a lie. It's drained. Yeah, released. Yeah. So The point is, and I think you did a great job covering this is where we're starting with. And yes, this is a, this is not a leadership podcast. It's correct. This is a podcast for leaders and for all of us to look at self care and wellness and health. So yeah, the glad we took that one on, really early on. This is all about in this episode, every episode after this, regardless of the topic, subject matter, and and the guests, which we will have ultimately comes back down to the relationship you have with yourself. Yeah. And developing that and growing. And so yeah, it was a great episode, we talked about a lot of things, but specifically towards the end, one of the things that you touched on what self care is, what self care isn't, instead of me repeating what you said, you can talk about what you said, because I do want to kind of use that to jump into what we're going to talk about today. So what we looked at was self care. At the end of it, it's not, it has to be something that we engage with, on on the on the regular on the daily, on the daily on the daily, I was pulling up what we were in, like we I you know, I put some specific things in there, like it's not a day at the spa, it's not working out, it can be those things. But just doing those things to do those things is not self care, the key that we took from it is it's prioritizing your relationship with yourself. And it is a way of life, something that you will do in various forms until you die. And as I've said, previous episodes, say it again, I have to live with myself. 24/7 Yep, I can, you know, really terrible marriage, I'll just, I'll leave her, I'll leave him. You know, you might be counting the days till the kids get the house or whatever. As long as you're living, you have to live with yourself. Whether it's the most important relationship, or we're ranking it, the fact the matter is, is the relationship with yourself is the one that you will have to deal with the most because you are with you. 24/7 Yeah. And so yeah, we we looked at and we talked about self care, just briefly, in terms of what it is and what it isn't. So I wanted to kind of pick up just something personally, it's helped me out a lot. And it really helped me understand better what you're talking about and not just understand, but the journey that we're on. I love what was it that Sarah said about said to you that it's really cool that people get to go on this in real time. Oh, yeah. So like, you know, as, as you the listener of this podcast, you're hearing us talk about things that we are engaging with in real time, like this isn't we haven't reached the peak of the mountain, and we're telling you how the trip was, we're telling you about this part of the process that we're going through at the moment, real time, this is really happening. And it's, it's a journey we're still on and will always be on. And that's the whole point. So, and with that self care has to be a way of life, self care, we can go back to what it is and what it isn't self care isn't something you do once a day. It's not something that you schedule in. Oh, yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to schedule in the time to work on my relationship with myself. My thoughts, patterns, my habits, and my Yeah, it's not something that you put on a calendar, just like a relationship with your wife, wife, or anyone else. It's, I'm not some I'm married to Laura. She's wonderful. She's the most amazing woman in the world, certainly my world. And I don't find a couple hours of the week to be married to her. Yeah. Or, yeah, it's it's a 24/7 thing. And same thing with our own self care prioritizing or self care. So with that, in in one of the things, just kind of talking about my own personal journey. And by the way, the the title of this episode, because we do do is the habit of self care. And for me, personal story, personal journey. And if you didn't listen to episode two, you can go back and listen to episode two don't want to rehash the whole thing. But there was this moment, this point in my life, where I just realized that a lot of the things that I was doing thinking just wasn't healthy. I just didn't want to do them anymore. And one of the biggest was just really negative self image and thought patterns and ways I thought about myself and really just, honestly, self deprecating thoughts. And so I knew that needed to change. And I knew I just didn't want that in my life anymore. But I think that early on, in those very early stages, was kind of waiting for a moment to happen, right? That something would happen or a breakthrough or some light would shine down. Yes. Nice music. Yeah. Yeah. Do we have that drop? No, no, we don't care. Matt loves the drop board. Yeah. Matt loves the drop board. Now he does not. Okay, when do drops? I was waiting for something to happen in And then I would care about Yeah. Or I would try and, you know, every once in a while, yeah, you know, that's probably not the best way to think or that's probably not the best thing to do. And I think that a big part of that was I don't, I don't think it's not wanting to put in the work. I think it's just trying to think of things in terms of you can your life can change overnight, or whatever I was thinking, I don't know what I was thinking, because this was all new to me. But right around that same time I read the book, The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg, you think it's Duhigg? That's what I think, do you know, do you ah, IgG. So, Charles, if you're listening, please feel free. Yeah, sorry, for butchering your name, if we did see, tell you how to say last name, read the book, The Power of Habit. And it was a great book that I took a lot from, and I'll say this right at the beginning, and I know that you have some thoughts on this. At the time, when I was reading it, it was much more about you know, again, I was I was corporate job and working in pastoring. And so I just need better habits, I need to I need more discipline, I need to work more, I need more productivity. So I'm like, Oh, this, this looks like a great book to really help me with my habits. But as I was reading it, and kind of what I was going through, really my personal life, and again, in this self care journey, started realizing that anything that I really want to be transformative in my life, meaning something that's not just for a season, or just a moment, but but really just part of my life. It's not going to happen in a moment, it's not an aha, it's not just a revelation, but it really has to become, it has to become as natural as breathing, your heart beating is natural as is getting up in the morning, brushing teeth, or whatever. So that reading this book, and really thinking about my habits, and how much of my day how much of my life was based on habit, that reading that book, and kind of that point, my life was, was really important, because it really helped me understand. I needed to have a habit of self care, not a moment, not a not a appointment. But this has to be something that's just constant. And and we're going to talk about this we're gonna dive into what habits are and how they form and we're gonna act really no. Spoiler alert, we're not I read the book, you know, you can't. Yeah. But having said that, we have both of us on our own right. It's been a lot of time studying this stuff, not just this book, but a lot about habits and lifestyle. But one of the first things I had to realize was, I was already living habitual, right. So I had a habit of self deprecating thinking, Yeah, I had a habit of bad habit of seeking external validation, needing other people to tell me I'm good or make me feel good. That was a habit. And not just like a thought pattern. But my activities and actions were largely driven by that need. And I've talked about the red bowl, and the multiple Reese's cups, Hey, Red bowls, a day, that was a habit of unhealthy eating and sleeping patterns I was going through, right. So I was already living habitually. So all of my issues in terms of poor self care, a poor relationship with myself, they were already habitual. And that's why they were so prevalent. That's why it not practicing self care was a way of life. And so practicing self care had to be a way of life, like you talk about the, you know, realizing you're already living habitually. And like we're, it's we're getting ready to say we're talking through it. And like, I like using habits right there as the as the key word with the understanding that habits are all behavioral patterns that we that we engage in. And some of those behavioral patterns are ones that we adopt ourselves, and some are behavioral patterns that have been impressed upon us, we didn't have a choice in the manner in one of the, I think one of the greatest steps to towards working at developing a habit of self care is that understanding that a lot of these these habits are not yours to carry, and a lot of these behavioral patterns that you're engaging in, you need to give yourself freedom and grace to say, this was never mine. And that, that that idea is free. And that idea is what will set you on this road towards towards health, towards self care, whatever you want to put there that that and I think we talked about this last time a little bit too, like you are not the choices you've made, you are not the things that people have said about you. And in the same way. You are not the behavioral processes that you were forced into whatever that looks like it can be good stuff even. And you have to evaluate is the serving mirror It's I don't want to get sidetracked because I know I could on this. And I think we will definitely get side touch as well touch on this. It is fascinating. When you think about you talk about this combination of, you know, some of it might be your choice, a lot of it may be things to press upon you, I think the route of pretty much the root of all self deprecating self loathing, whatever you call it, that actually doesn't come from ourselves. Yeah, the root causes are from external forces, people, events, trauma. So, so in a sense, and again, when I say the combination, right, so we still have choice, we still, you know, have autonomy in our life to some degree. Yeah. But But I think understanding that the root causes, which we're going to get into, if not this episode, next episode on the why, but the root causes of losing this sense of self care, self preservation, if you will, something goes wrong along the way. And the reason why I say we're going to touch upon this on another episode, because before this recording, we were talking about this about, you know, kids are very infants newborn, they're very good at, I need something I try to make no noise. They're all about self care, even though they can't take care of themselves, but they're about self care. And then we start to lose that isn't good. Oh, so the point I want to make, though, is most of if not all of the root causes of our poor self image. Poor self care comes from external forces and events. But the great thing is the basis of self care is 100%. On Me, and My choice, yep, you isn't perfect. You can't get it from external forces or external pressures. So that's the Pro and the con, right? Great news. You have control over your life. You can, you can practice self care, you can do this bad news, if you want to call it bad, but you are the only one that can do it. Yeah, no one can do it for you. Everything you need is already right in there. But you got to do it. So yeah, in order to develop relationship with myself, I had, I needed to have a habit of self care. But what does that mean? What does habit mean? And you know, because I have a bad habit, I bite my nails or bad habit of eating Reese's cups. Yeah, I think for this episode, I want to just talk about habits and want to talk in and I'll say this, most of what I have here, and what we're gonna talk about comes from the book. So shout out to Charles Duhigg. Don't know, Charlie do. There you go. Yeah, Charlie, do I'm better? Well, they don't. So thanks, Charles, for your book. But I want to talk about habits. And next episode, we'll be talking about the habit of self care. And specifically, how does this apply to self care, but we just kind of felt like we wanted to really help help you understand help if you've never heard about the habit loop if you've never read the book, or similar, but I think this is going to help a lot of people I really helped me a ton, and especially is we're going to see the Duke study where they estimated up to 40%, as much as 40% of our daily activity is actually habit, a habit routine. So it's very much a part of our life. So I think be great to find out what it is. What do you think? Let's talk about let's talk about habits baby. Yeah, do we have a license for that? No, no, no. So habits want to talk about habits and the habit loop so psychiatrist, psychologist, biologist, they identified what is now termed the habit loop. A habit is simply a loop of a cue, a routine and a reward. Alright, so the queue what? i Every time I've, I've read this. It makes us all just sound like big dumb dogs. Well, yeah,

Eric Cedo: 19:03

I mean, at least 40%

Unknown: 19:05

Yeah, we're just big dumb dogs. Just give me a cookie at the end of it. And I'm good to go. But here's what's crazy as we go through this we're gonna realize man,

Matt Laginess: 19:15

we're big dumb dogs.

Unknown: 19:18

So the habit loop what is the habit? So the great example with cue routine and reward is brushing your teeth, right? So I've always used this I've used brushing my teeth is one of the one of the examples of if there's anything that I really want to do, and and I want it to become part of my life. I can do it. I just have to make it a routine. I have to make it a habit. The reason I say that especially being add, there's there was always this very limiting mindset that I have. I can't get to work on time. I can't get a paper done on time. And then I remind myself, I don't have to think about brushing my teeth. I have a routine in Morning. Sometimes it varies. Sometimes I'll get up different times, you know, might get a coffee first or you know, take my son to school and then come, but I never leave the house without brushing my teeth. It has become a habit. It's a routine that I don't miss. Meaning I don't not do it. Right. Not something I particularly enjoy. Now, I just wake up and I just cannot wait to brush. Just, that's why I woke up, I woke up just so I can brush my teeth. No, it's not that, but it's something I do every day. And so I think that was a big moment for me was understanding that if I can do something like brush my teeth every day that isn't necessarily like something I get really excited for. But it has become a routine. I don't have to think about it as much. But Matt come to find out toothpaste is actually created in a way to be habit forming. Right. So we've all had this cue, especially if you're married are like me, married and then you have amazing middle eastern food with a lot of garlic. Just fear of talking to just fear of talking. So wake up in the morning, my breath that reeks is bad at garlic the day before. Lots of lots of garlic, I won't close the hole that spread. I don't want my wife, I don't want Laura to smell my bad breath. And so the Q, the Q is, ooh, my breath is bad. Mm hmm. My wife next to me, I don't want her smell bad routine is I'm gonna go brush my teeth. The reward is I can kiss my wife after and that's great. My wife wants to talk to me. She wants to wants to give me a kiss because I brushed my teeth. So there's a reward, right? There's a cue, Bad breath is bad need to do something about that there's an activity, I brush my teeth, but there's a reward. And if there's no reward, then you're not going to have a cue. Certainly, it won't become habitual. Just put it like that. So and it turns out, as you'll read in the book, if you read the book, brushing teeth daily, and using toothpaste actually was not habitual for a long time for a lot of people like most things, marketing, packaging and product idea. So Claude Hopkins is the person whose guard is the one and he's the one that invented Pepsodent toothpaste. He changed the toothpaste by making it tingly. Right. So toothpaste before that was like baking. Yeah, baking soda. Boring. And so he's like, Oh, I'm gonna make it Tingley. Right. So just that little change in the product actually made the activity rewarding. You feel minty fresh, you feel it happening. And that just that slight change, made something that was pretty mundane and wasn't really widely, you know, accepted and certainly from a product standpoint was not taking off. So important lesson there. And a big part of understanding habit is the reward is what drives the habit. And we're gonna look at this little later on, we talked about this and the reward the reward that you get, and in just about every habit, ultimately, in your brain, the reward is going to be dopamine released, right? There's a good feeling that comes from the cue, the activity and the reward. What is fascinating, really what makes it go from just a fun activity, something that was enjoyable to a habit is what Reacher's researchers found is that eventually we start associating the reward feeling with the cue. Okay. So in the example of the dog, right, we talk about Pavlov's dog, ring a bell, you get food, yeah, I eat the food, I get a reward, I get food over time, just ring the bell causes the dog to get the same reaction, salivating, that craving as the reward itself, and that's when it becomes the habit. And it's healthy, unhealthy doesn't matter. The cue becomes the craving, right? And then you just want that thing again, you want that feeling again. So yeah, brushing the teeth, I brush my teeth, doesn't really taste all that great, doesn't feel that great. Probably didn't smell all that great. Women didn't go around kissing you because you brush teeth, adding something that's rewarding that tingle and that sense of freshness in your mouth, which by the way, actually doesn't really clean your teeth. It actually doesn't really clean your breath, which I found out for my dentist. So the important thing that we need to understand we're talking about habits and understanding that routine is ultimately there's going to be a reward. And when you get that reward, when you get that dopamine release, you have that that good feeling If you do it enough, when you do it, then the queue becomes the thing that you actually start craving, you start craving. And so, I mean, and we can use, you use drug addiction as example, right? So someone, party or whatever, first time, first time you try drug, smoke something or inject something, whatever, whatever state you're in, you know, whether you're depressed or happy or whatever state you're in, doesn't really matter the first time. Yeah, because what happens is you do that activity, and then you just get this huge, that that just explosion, that feeling that dopamine release, right. And it feels really good and your brain, because that's the reward system. And by the way, we're wired that way. Because we wouldn't do things unless there was a reward. And conversely, our brains are also wired for pain, and pain avoidance things that are harmful things that we shouldn't be doing. And our brain causes pain. And that's how we avoid things that we shouldn't be doing. And the things we should be doing. We get rewarded with in our brain dopamine, right? That's why cheese when you eat it, it's the same parts of your brain as cocaine. That's why sugar, but cheese though? Yeah, I mean, let's just acknowledge cheese. That's C now, I want a cheeseburger. Right. Thanks. You're welcome. It's what you crave. Yeah, yeah, this is not sponsored by

Matt Laginess: 26:23

that we're always open to it, though. Always open. So the

Unknown: 26:27

craving, the craving is what really becomes difficult because you lose that feeling. You the dopamine starts to decrease from your brain. And then you're like, Yeah, I'm not feeling so great. What was that thing that made me feel good? Yeah, so I want to contextualize it just a little bit. So that constant cycle in that loop, you know, like you and I, growing up in church world, we would see it all the time, because folks, were always chasing something without being able to put words to it. This is what they were chasing, they were chasing that feeling. And like you'd have, so like, when I was a youth pastor, in the fall, we would have youth convention, and we take the kids and just be this crazy experience, and all this really cool stuff happen. And they would be great for a couple months, and they would ride that. And then eventually that wears off. Because you're not immersed in it, you're not in front of it anymore. It has it's not a habit is just something you did. And then summer camp comes along. And the same thing happens. And so this perpetual cycle is perpetual loop. And, you know, we'll probably cover it more next time. But I think asking that question of why right? Why am I chasing this, that, that requires the ability for each of us to zoom out from our immediate circumstances and issues? But if we can answer that question of why, why am I engaging in this habit? You know, what is this reward that it's giving me that I have to have over and over again? Why do I have to have that reward? When we talk about doing the work and diving deep? That's that's what it is, is as answering this? Why question, when we can do that, then it we are able instead of engaging in habits from this is totally from my wife again. Shut up, Sarah, she's Hey, Sarah, we were just talking about this today. Like if the habits that we are chasing come from a place of lack, then we will always be found wanting, if the habits that we chase come from a place of plenty, then the reward will be much more fulfilling. Because we don't have to keep chasing it. Because it becomes a part of who we are not something that we desire. Man. It's so funny. I I remember thinking as a kid, especially as a teen men have struggled all year. Just if I can just get to church camp. Yes. Make it to church camp. I'll get saved all over. Oh, yeah. I was just excited. Because then that was like a camp relationship or five for the week. Yeah. Yeah, we won't go there. Oh, we can. I mean, that's a whole other episode. I know. I'm sure a lot of my camp friends are listening. So you're, you're, it's spot your reward people and a lot of a lot of people focus on the activity, focus on the reward without ever addressing the cue, without ever addressing what is it. And so habits are just simply that habits are there's a cue that then is preceded by a routine an activity that ends and a reward. And when it ends in a reward, and when that reward is is powerful enough, your brain is wired to do that again. So habits are essential, not in again, we're going to talk about self care and habits next episode a lot more. But just just to function just biologically to function habits are essential. Our brains are wired to develop habits to actually save time and to decrease brain activity. Right. So what's actually happening when something to the first time you do something, and no matter what it is, and and to use an analogy, if I'm driving to a destination I've never been before, right, I'm going to have to be my brain is going to be hyper alert, hyper active in the sense of, you know, the frontal part of your brain is just going to be working overtime because I don't know where I'm going. It's the first time my neurons have not made this connection of this is out to go somewhere, you got to turn down the radio so you can see the roads. I've got my, you know, Google, Google inas telling me where to go, how to get there, got the directions. So so the first time you're doing something, tons of brain activity. And by the way, just a little side note for us add people in the house, hey, that's one of the reasons why people add easily can get bored or sidetracked in need new activities, or because that part of our brain, prefrontal cortex is not firing, synapses are firing, making those connections, decreased brain activity in that part of the brain. And so add people ADHD, we will seek out new things to do shiny Penny, hey, look at that squirrel, because it actually activates that frontal part of our brain, right? So first time you're doing something tons of brain activity, but then when you do it again, and again, and again, your brain, that frontal part of your brain that's like constantly working overload, learning new things, making new neuron connections, that activity starts to leave that frontal part of the brain and goes to a deeper part of the brain that is really controls autonomous actions. So to use our driving somewhere new is the example the complete opposite of that. And we've all experienced this. I certainly have. I've literally literally driven home from work and got in the car drove home got pulled in the driveway and realize I don't even remember a single thing I did in the last 15 I don't remember. I don't remember stopping and I don't remember a red light. I I did all of that. And I didn't have to think about it. Yeah, right. Super scary. I did it once had a concert down in Toledo area, and didn't get out of there until like two in the morning. Now if you know me, I'm I love my sleep. And if I don't get sleep, it's it's a bad time I was riding with while I was driving, someone was riding with me. And we both went back to my house and crashed. I legit woke up inside my house, woke up in bed and went, what happened. I didn't remember single part of the trip. Didn't remember any bit of it. And that is terrifying. That my brain went on that heart of an autopilot. The friend that was with me said he's like I was talking to you. But like you really didn't seem like you were there. Like you were really deep in thought. And I went no, I was I was asleep. Just just driving. Yes. If God is listening, Michigan State Police. Yeah. Come get me Come get it. So when when we previous church, and I don't mean previous church, family, Christian Church, previous building we had before moved into a new building. It was same direction, same same route, but our new church was like eight blocks further down. So he writes, yeah, at least 10 times in the first six months, let's say this year, certainly, without thinking about it, I made the that left turn into our old building, to the street on our old building. Right? Because because our brains literally get hardwired to remember those things. So when we say they're necessary, our brains can't function at that high level of constant activity all the time, you wouldn't be able to breathe, you wouldn't be able your heart wouldn't be so Right. So. So things in our life that become habitual, it's actually helping our brain to be able to function but also it frees us and allows us to discover new things. Right? So regardless of talk about good habits, bad habits, healthy habits, unhealthy, unhealthy habits, habits are just part of our life. It's how our brains are wired, and there's no getting around it. So we're going to live our lives by habits mentioned the statistic, the Duke research study in 2006, as much as 40% of actions we perform each day are based on habit. Right? So, so much of our life is driven by habit. And as we mentioned, if self care is going to be not just important, not just something you really want to really want to work on, but it really becomes a part of your life then it can't just be front of brain. I'm thinking about this I have to constantly and and honestly Matt, and that's why I wanted you to say what Sarah said about being on this journey with us. This is still an everyday thing that I have to deal with, of not having to wake up in think really hard about I got to practice self care today. Not having to stop and think all the time. Like, okay, this thing that you're about to do want to do, is this the healthiest thing for you to do healthiest way to reach your goals of self care. And the reason why it's so hard is because for 4445 46 years of my life, that wasn't my thought process. Right? Right. So just like driving to the old building, that pattern was so ingrained, right? That it took a lot of times passing by and going to eight more blocks, right, in order for that new pattern to be ingrained. So I guess this is a good point to say to people, if you're struggling with this, if you're new, and you're like, Hey, I've been listening to podcasts I've been, you know, I'm on the journey with you. I'm really trying and then a week goes by like, Ah, whatever. Listen, this stuff does not happen overnight. No, this is hard work. It's a journey, it is absolutely worth it. But I want to encourage you, because this is still a struggle for me. I'm still in this process of re training, my brain retraining Reek Remapping. In my brain, my thoughts, patterns, activities, you do something for 40 something years, in my case, right? It's gonna be really hard to rewire. Right? Literally in like, you know, talking about our brains, like those neurons that are going to fire, they're going to always take the path of least resistance. And I think we mentioned neural pathways before. And if not, surprise, here we are in each of these habits, and these behavioral patterns that we're talking about all run along these neural pathways. And so you know, like, what you're talking about those things that you developed over the course of your entire life up till now, those are really deep pathways, and they're really straight shots from one end to the other. And so your brain is always going to flow along that path, the last resort, less resistant, least resistance. And so when you're engaging in these habits, like it's tough, and so, Episode wise, of the podcast, you know, we followed kind of this, this flow of, you know, sharing our stories is one thing, but you know, talking about, you know, beginning with self transparency, really, and looking at that, and being able to zoom out, be honest with yourself, and then, you know, moving into, okay, this is what I've identified in myself, to get into where we're beginning to talk about habits and making changes in those areas where you've identified, you mentioned, habits are not good or bad, they just are they exist, they're a part of who we are you, you and you may need, we've talked about this, you may need someone to come alongside you, as you're doing that zooming out process and looking at identifying these habits and saying, okay, is this habit serving me? Is this even mine to have? Is this where I want to keep engaging on the daily? If the answer is no, to any of that, than having someone there alongside of you to talk about? Okay, so what is this alternative now? And why? Why, you know, why do you think you need to stop doing this and start doing this, you know, having a trusted friend, having a professional like that, it can be key because we're, I don't wanna say always, but we're almost always going to lie to ourselves about, you know, where it is about simple things, and about big things because of those neural pathways and the conditioning that we have. And so I don't know, I just feel like that that's a, it's an important thing to recognize, like, yes, we're engaging in this real time. But it's also it hasn't just been, you know, a couple months for us, this has been a few years in development. And, you know, at least for me, like my goal is to help folks that listen to this and see that, that line of thinking begin with being honest with yourself and zooming out, looking at, you know, that roadmap that you've created, making small changes bit by bit by bit, and that is doing the work. And that leads to these habits that will serve you in the long term of self care. That's really what it what self care is, that is the roadmap for it, right? And we've mentioned this before, and you've listened to us or you know, us we don't like to or don't use, good, bad, or, at all, just is so with habits and hopefully this is speaking to someone, a lot of someone's one of the first things you can do. First habit is to stop judging your habits. Stop labeling, oh, this is good. This is bad. Give one example we had someone in our church who came and just, you know, just want to talk to some counseling, and this person was smoking. They been smoking for a lot of years. And for many years, you know, our faith, our religion, you know, smoking is that sin that's of the devil. It's an it's not just a bad habit. It's Send you can't do that. And I know this person was fully expecting soon as they told me, I'm smoking, waiting, fully expecting from you say, Well, you got to stop. That's no, that's terrible sinful what I said to this person who by the way, so again, back to the why right dealt with a lot of trauma. Yeah had a lot of trauma they were dealing with and a lot of anxiety. And I said to this person, listen, if that's what you need right now, if that's helping you in some way to deal with your anxiety, I'm not gonna call it good or bad. Yeah, what I what I can say is, maybe there's healthier ways that we can explore. But if that's the only thing you got right now, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you it's bad. Yeah. Because the fact is, it wasn't about that activity. It wasn't about that habit. That wasn't the issue. The issue was the why the issue was, I have anxiety, I've panic. And you know, I'm doing this thing. And if that's helping to cope in the moment, I'm not going to sit here and judge call something good or bad. Yeah. And for me, and again, I can't certainly no, I'm not, I'm not in that role, the moment in the past or roll, so I don't deal with myself, right. That's the way I have to look at things I have I have learned, I have to quit judging, good, bad, I have to look at is this the healthiest way for me to achieve what I want achieve and healthiest way for me to deal with? Because yeah, I get it. I have anxiety, too. I were talking before the episode, I kind of zoned out all of Thanksgiving without even realizing it, you know, I still deal with some mental health challenges and add in disorders and things. The way I cope may not be the healthiest way. But certainly I realized that there's a lot of things I do that are coping mechanisms that are just responses. Some of them, like I said, habits, meaning, don't even think about it. They're just they're just ingrained, and they're autonomous. So before we kind of deep dive into, you know, habits and formations, and all this other stuff, I think it is important just to for myself, for all of us, for anyone listening, great. First place to start, is understanding what the reason why you're doing whatever it is you're doing whatever the habit is what the loop, it didn't start off because you wanted to loop you want to have it right? Certainly, if if they are unhealthy, or potentially deadly or destructive habits, right? I think we've society, certainly religion has done a really bad job of demonizing the activity, demonizing the person, without really understanding and getting to the root of why, yeah, and where and, and dealing with that. So and, by the way, also not going to sit here and say, doesn't matter what you do, whatever you do is fine. Now, some habits that people have not only unhealthy for themselves, they're very unhealthy for other people harmful, potentially even deadly. So we're not validating anybody or anything. Our point is, and especially with self care, whatever it is that you recognize in your why, where's this is coming from? How, how is where did where did I go off track in terms of self care?

Matt Laginess: 43:23

How is this serving me? How's it served

Unknown: 43:25

me, you won't be able to move forward and really deal with that, if you're living in that cycle of judgment, because that becomes a habit just as much as anything. And is odd as it sounds, it actually becomes rewarding when you almost validate your your negative self feelings. Yeah. See, I was right. I was right. I'm bad. So if you're doing that, you know, stop, try try try not to don't judge place and understand Where's this coming from? So you can you can be honest with yourself and deal with it. Right. Alright. So and realizing whatever you're doing habitually, at some point, it did play a role in survival in some way it this is coping. You were using this as coping and it might have served you at a time. It might have been all you had, hopefully, not only through this, but but through your own exploration. We can just find healthier ways to deal and so good bad, not so much. Maybe used to be helpful. Not so much helpful now, yeah, maybe was healthy in a moment. Not anymore. Or at the very least, it was just coping it was survival and allowed you to get get through. Yeah, I made it through that. Now. I'm on the other side. Now I can deal and move forward with healthier ways. Alright. So how can self care become habit? Alright, so and again, straight from the book and from Charles Duhigg. White website. First things first. We said this self care. This is a huge undertaking. This is a lifelong journey. Having said all that, you have to start with one. I was put in another plug for a book actually. Well, it's called The One Thing I was read that just after power of habit. And, and this is so easy to do. So for instance, someone says I want to lose weight, right, I'm going to lose 10 pounds. And so in order that I'm going to start exercising, everyday, I'm going to drink my body weight, how to half my body weight in ounces, I'm going to go to the gym, I'm going to the 10 things they're going to do, right? And then we try and do all 10 the challenges and the reality is really, you can only do about one thing at a time when you're taking on something new. And really focus on it. So first thing that when you looking at a habit, it's best to start with just one thing. And in the book in psychology, they talk about this, what's called a keystone habit. Okay, keystone habit, make one small change that will have impact across many other aspects in yours when I read this. So when I was thinking about this, when the first things that came to mind, in urban planning urban development cities, there's something called the broken window theory. Okay, broken window theory, meaning when you're dealing with blight, dealing with abandoned buildings and dealing with the, these macro issues in terms of urban development, one broken window has this cascading effect, just seeing broken windows kind of creates in your mind and your brain visually, a sense of decay. Another example, controversial, I'm not using this as an example because supporting it hot takes by air hot takes by Mayor Rudy Giuliani when he was trying to tackle crime in the city of New York, and violent criminals. He started by arresting people jumping turnstiles in the subway. Right? The idea there is really tough to catch criminals right in in committing a serious crime like grand larceny. Yeah. But we can catch people jumping the turnstiles and trying to skip the skip the fare. And oh, by the way, you know, as the theory goes, the same people that are jumping, turnstiles are the same people committing these crimes, point being tackling a smaller, something more doable, something smaller, that has a cascading effect in the book talks about a similar exercise, a company wanted to increase profits. And the CEO went to the board and said, I'm going to increase profits by focusing on safety, employee safety, right? The board's like, You're crazy, right? And he did it. And he said, you know, we're going to reduce workplace injuries and, and focusing on that one thing, and that very achievable and attainable results had a ripple effect across the entire company, and eventually the company's profits. So the point here is, when you think about Hotman, there's so much with health so much with wellness so much with self care, it's easy to think, man, I got to stop my poor thinking, I gotta change my way of think I gotta sleep better. I have to, like there's a million things right. But we can't tackle them all at once. No. Got to start with one. I know people who try. We all do. I mean, it's exhausting to watch them do it. But it's natural, because because especially with the cell phone, when you get self aware and that, you know, no BS, you start, okay. I just did a list of all that's not every business this this this this? No, but I'm saying like, when when you first start being honest with yourself, right? And you're like, Alright, I'm doing and I mean it and if it can feel like I have all these things I need to fix. Right? And so I'm going to just tackle them all. But it doesn't work like that. Yeah. So so the one thing starting with a keystone things for me, and this is our in, you know, we don't come on here. And sometimes we tell, you know, fun stories, but I think for the most part, you're gonna get real and honest. Yeah. And I'm just speaking truth and because it's not going to help you if you're dealing with whatever you're dealing with. If I'm sitting up here, I drink Red Bulls and ate Reese's cups. No, I had this really, and didn't realize it for most of my life until maybe the last year in therapy whenever I was alone, and I'll be more specific Monday. So it's a Monday, Monday. Okay. And, but But yeah, if if I was alone, let's say Laura had to go out of town was wasn't going to be around for a week whenever I would get this feeling like, Okay, I'm going to do something bad because I'm bad. Like, I wasn't rationally thinking this but it's just like, I just had this craving that I had to do something. And and by the way, she knows this. This This isn't this is not like a surprise earlier if you listen to the episode. No, I had to tell this I'd be honest with her and myself. Or Or let's say I had to go on a A business trip. For several months out of the year, I had to go to Cleveland back and forth, like once a month, and I would get my car and leave the house. And I'd go to a gas station and buy a pack of cigarettes or buy. I dipped a lot in college, high school in college. So give some tobacco Deborah. And I would do it. And then okay, got that on my system that did it, and then throw it away your brain, right? made no sense, not only to make any sense, can I just say that, like you and I talked about this, I told you about it a while ago. And as you were setting the table for whatever it was, I like my anxiety is going up, as you're like, I just as soon as she was gone, or as soon as you were gone. I just had to do something bad. And like you're setting the table. And then you're like, Yeah, I bought cigarettes, or I bought two. And I went, Oh my gosh, right. But in my mind is like, I just got to do something, something a little bit bad, right? It says really bad. Yeah, go cheat on my wife.

Matt Laginess: 50:59

Right? That's what I was expecting.

Unknown: 51:03

So but in in, again, in this process of really being honest, and discovering and therapy, I addressing these things. So started talking to my therapist about it, I don't understand what is this? Why do I get this feeling? And, you know, she helped me understand, you know, when you when you grow up, and you don't really have a lot of confidence in yourself or, you know, we've talked about our religious upbringing in Pentecostal faith and, and just a lot of structure under, there's a sense of, you know, it's a bad world out there. And we got to keep you from bad things didn't go to parties didn't go to, you know, just a lot of things. And but did we though, I mean, we had to sneak, right. So, but But this notion of, I can't go out there, I go to myself. And then I go from, you know, very structured home, very structured, high school, very structured life to University of Michigan, where I'm literally just dumped on campus. And I'm all alone. And there's no one to tell me what to do. No one to keep me in check. And I just kind of went crazy. I know if I said this one of my episodes, first four days of college, I end up passed out someplace else other than my,

Matt Laginess: 52:19

Did you burn any couches during your tenure? No, I

Unknown: 52:21

went to Michigan, not Michigan State. But yes, such a good setup. Yeah, thanks. So what I didn't realize was, I was afraid to be alone. And being alone was actually mentally, like, traumatizing for me, because I just felt like I was gonna do something bad. Yeah. And actually, in college I did. That's exactly what happened. I did a lot of destructive stuff. Because I didn't know how to control myself. I never learned that habit of self control. Yeah. And so fast forward, you know, 22 years in adult life, and still having the repercussions of that, and this feeling of like, when I'm alone. So this is one of the first things I'm like, okay, so I need to deal with this, I need to tackle this. And there's a lot of things I could have done. And I mentioned this before, and this is where this kind of comes in changing that loop, right. So I'm alone, do something, you know, I need to smoke a cigarette, or dip. And then I get that dual reward of not only the nicotine, which is awesome, but the dopamine rush of doing something sneaky and get away with it. Which by the way, that is a reward. It gives you there's a reason why people sneak and do stuff. It there's a dopamine release in risky behavior. No. And by the way, another issue ADHD, a lot of times seeking out very risky behaviors. Why? Because you need your brain needs that activity and needs that, you know, dopamine, I need, I need activity. So if I can't, you know, shiny Penny, I just need to do something really risky and, and crazy. So I had all kinds of rewards happening when this was happening, right? So then it becomes this loop. Monday morning comes around, I have to go to work, Laura's go to work by myself, Okay, I gotta gotta do something. Right. So the queue being alone. And this is goes to the point of why it wasn't because I was alone. wasn't wasn't lonely. But in fact, I like being by myself. The queue was in the Y was realizing that I did not have self trust that I without realizing it needed other people to be my conscious other people to keep me in line. Other people to tell me I'm good. Tell me I'm bad. Tell me what to do. I'll do it. But I did not have that habit that practice. And this is why self care is so important because I didn't have self care. I did not do things based on whether it was best or healthy for me. So the alone was in the queue, it wasn't the why it was never really realizing that I did not develop a self trust, you did not trust myself. And I'm alone. Now I'm alone. There's no one around. I can't trust my So, how did I didn't tackle I have to trust myself. And this is this is going to be maybe counterintuitive. Some people, what I had to tackle was being alone. Well, I was gonna ask, like, how has this changed for you? Since so here's in this is why this is very doable, and is very practical. I want people to get this, okay. So if you have a craving, and in this case, like then associating being alone with that reward of, you know, risky behavior, or just something. Now, recognizing, so the cue has to be driven with a different reward, different activity, different word, because the reward drives cue and the craving. So, no, I'm going to be alone. No, it's not just, oh, I can't be alone. It's, I'm going to be alone. And I don't want to have to deal with this thought pattern of what do I do? What am I doing? I don't know what to do with myself. I replaced it with breathing. Okay. Sounds crazy. Knowing Alright, I need to be comfortable. One with being with myself and trusting myself and understanding I want to be healthy, make healthy choices for myself from that saying, Alright, my brain is wired a certain way. I have to change the cue and activity reward. So you got to replace one bad habit or one unhealthy, unhealthy habit with another. My goal was having a healthier way to deal with being alone. Yeah, yeah. So that keystone habit of deep breathing actions. So exercise in general, we got to peloton which Oh, yeah, it's really good. Shout out to ask him to say Ricardo, Somerset peloton, I know your guy whose code Eric$100 No, so So Alright, gonna be long. And I'm going to have healthy Q Yeah, are healthy routine with a good reward. Deep breathing, does a lot of things. For me. One, it helps with grounding. I've talked about this before. But if you're not familiar with concept, grounding just simply means what I'm doing deep breathing, just call it meditation, call it grounding, whatever want to call it still in your brain, not thinking a whole lot of thoughts, focusing on my breath, focusing on my breathing. And when I do deep breathing, not only do I get, you know, chemically, physiologically, reward, just that stillness and calmness. And and I should say, coupled with mindfulness, thinking about what I'm doing the So just the fact that I'm doing it becomes a reward becomes a milestone, it's an achievement. So that achievement, and again, when I'm when I'm the why when I'm dealing with in my brain is you can't trust yourself, you can't take care of yourself, just the activity. It's not it's not even just the breathing itself. It's the fact that I'm doing the activity, so that mindfulness of you are doing something to take care of yourself, you're doing something that is going towards your goal, your bank account of self care, yeah. But it also has that reward of I just feel good, feel better. I've mentioned this before, if I do that, or do yoga, or something else, when I when I am done with that, just being present around me and just things that maybe I didn't notice before bed wasn't made, I just, I just want to do things to improve what's happening around me, right? So that is so deep to have to deal with like, Oh man, I've all these years of in from my childhood and from, you know, upbringing in from the trauma of College of, you know, being alone and being drunk and getting high or whatever. And something as simple as, okay, I'm not going to try and tackle everything, there is all the layers of that the habit and the cue, routine reward. I can address that. I can tackle that. And that small thing breathing mindfulness meditation, it has a ripple effect. Right. And what's cool about that is it's one of those habits, that there's literally no negative downside to and not only that, it's something at any point during the day, any point if I'm starting to feel stressed, or I could just feel, you know, all of that tension building up I can feel that need to work and do all those things. I can stop and I can practice taking deep breaths, just still, in my mind doing grounding, just like that. I'm back in a better place. And let's be honest, and I'm not kidding myself. This is not the end all be all is not the cure. It doesn't fix everything. But it's that keystone habit that one thing able to do that I look forward to, again, is that it's a craving. Now I want to do, it's not just the reward, I want to do the activity. And it just it and it does help that with mindfulness, it literally puts my mind back where it should be, which is, I'm taking care of myself. Yeah, I know, I can trust myself. I do love myself enough to make healthy choices for myself. Not for anybody else, not because I want to please someone else or, or a deity, or I'm doing it because I care enough about myself. I'm not all the way there still have ups and downs. But I'm doing this right now, in this moment. This is what matters right now. It uh, maybe I'll call this this is a metaphysical mat moment when you are doing those things, and really getting into grounding, take shoes and socks off and put them in the dirt. There is feet. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Put your put your toes in the dirt when when you're doing that and really become immersed in that moment in that connection that you have with the earth, that you are a part of it, you will eventually go back to it. And understanding how small you are in comparison to everything else. There's some science, but there's also some new science to that really, that really supports immense benefit there. Also, I mean, for you, you could chew nicotine gum while you're doing it too, and, and get all the all the old stuff that could still serve you too. I mean, I do. I do you have nicotine pouches, like with me right now? Oh, amazing. I mean, and that's one of those things. It's like, you know what, and I told Laura said, listen, yeah, I've been I've been doing nicotine pouches. And, and she's like, Okay, so there's literally nothing destructive about that. But she was rightfully pissed. Like, yeah, but you kept it from me, like, I'm like, yep, that's the problem. And that was the problem. It was a, it was a thing. It was the it was the keeping it, it was the hiding, it was that. And I knew that. And that's the whole point. And that's why man is the BSE animal. And that's why radical self transparent, being honest with yourself, but then also allowing myself the freedom of choice of choosing my own health to say, but I'm still going to do this, because looked into it doesn't have harmful benefits. Certainly, if it becomes harmful, then I need to address that. But being able to say, I'm gonna make a choice. And if it's a healthy choice, I'm gonna stick with it. unhealthy choice, I'm gonna get rid of it. But ultimately, I have to, I have to be able to make choices for myself. And I have to learn to trust myself enough, but I can't trust myself if I don't care about myself. Which brings us back to self care. So yes, there's my deep thoughts with Eric Sido. And just being really honest with you, because this is real stuff. And self care isn't just about oh, man, you know, I didn't tip enough or I mean, just all the little things in our life knowing this and I know that just me Lottie listening a lot of my friends, a lot of us, pastors and other people. I know the habits, I know the things is a lot worse. Well, it Okay, so I've done a lot worse. Do I say, oh, yeah, the worst thing ever. Did you smoked a cigarette or whatever? No, but, but we're not going to address real stuff. That's not gonna help. So I just got to be honest and say, Yeah, that's what that's that's kind of what I was dealing with. So to kind of roll back a little bit, we had mentioned, like reading through this book, and you read it at a particular point in your life, and I just read it the other day, and I'm not in that spot. And so like, when I read it, I'm like, Okay, so like, I'll just say this kind of as a caveat. Like, I enjoyed the book. I think there's some great principles, and that's why we're talking about it today. The only concern that I have, especially for leaders that are listening to this as you go through it, if if you're not identifying that why when it comes to these habits, it's it's going to revolve around production, and you are what you produce. It's, you know, you're engaging in good habits, putting air quotes on that, or engaging in good habits to be a more productive person. If this was a regular leadership podcast, that's what they would tell you is a good thing. I'm telling you, it's crap. You are not what you produce, being making more things is not making you a better human being. And so putting, replacing habits and identifying that y is going to move you along the path to producing in yourself a decent humanity. Man, that was really good. Track a decent human. Yeah. Yeah. And and when I read it, that's exactly what I was looking at. Yeah, totally. So yeah, the book you know, when you read it, you'll you'll get from it, what you get from it, I think the main point, and I think we did a good job. covering at least this up so we could pick up next episode. Yeah. Understanding habits, understanding the loop. So, getting into our three things, three things or three things, we need to have some like three things music. Yes.

Matt Laginess: 1:05:12

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm writing that down right now.

Unknown: 1:05:15

Anyone wants to submit their three things with Eric Matt? Yeah, it'll be much better than that. Three things. Three things. Alright. So first thing, question to consider. This is easy one question to consider. What habit loop my currently experiencing, as Matt said, not just what's the habit, but addressing the why. So if you listened to episode four, radical transparency, and you went through the exercise of just being honest with yourself, you probably uncovered one to 1020 unhealthy, let's say, things you're doing habits. It could be mindsets, it could be I'm gonna give you a lot of things. And in by the way, your unhealthy habit might be my healthy habit. So that's why we don't judge this will say, you know, this one's good, or this is bad. But question to ponder, what is your habit loop? What's the cue routine and reward? And why Where's it coming from? And we'll put a link in the book and probably some notes I didn't get to. But talking about understanding and there was a little experiment, he puts in the book of you can go through and changing the rewards, changing the activities to see to kind of figure out, you know, what is the what is driving this? What's the motivator behind this? What's the why topic to explore? I think it's obvious the book, take a look at the book. And, and you know, there's a lot of other books on on habits this this one in particular, as Matt mentioned, might lean a little bit towards work in productivity, however you take from it. Bigger point is understanding habits. Looking at the habit loop and what we've talked about, hopefully, that'll help you better understand and figure out your what is your habit, what's what's, what's driving, action to take action to take. And again, once you realize the habit, once you realize what's driving him a keystone habit to adopt, think about and actually practice what he puts in the book and kind of this experiment, maybe you need to change, change the activity, maybe need to change the reward, there's a lot of things you can do. So don't just think about what you're doing. But see if you can start replacing, or identifying and, and experimenting with change the reward. I'll give you one easy example. Matt, for instance, and I learned this might have even been this book, if you're trying to change your eating habits, one of the best things you can do is put the unhealthy snacks items and things in the back of the fridge all the way in the back of the fridge. That little activity actually has been proven to show that people are much less likely to go to the back of the fridge to get something front of mind, front of sight. And it also changes when one of the things you can do is make the activity harder to do. So for instance, if you want to, if you're having a hard time getting up in the morning, and you hit the alarm, the snooze button on your alarm clock, crazy idea, move the alarm clock out of arm's reach, make it harder to do that thing. No, but seriously, no, no, whatever it is, and we're given kind of silly exam. But whatever it is, make it harder to do that activity because you said path of least resistance. When you start putting resistance into the path, it actually starts to unravel a little bit. That loop will the food thing just means that two in the morning I'm going to look like a bear bent over in the fridge for a gene for this time of year pumpkin roll. Like that's that's what that means for me like I will take that challenge. Well, the most obvious to is the easiest way to not eat something is to not buy something that's easiest,

Matt Laginess: 1:09:17

then I'll make a worse are something that

Unknown: 1:09:19

temptation wants us there's do too hard to overcome. Alright, thanks so much everyone for listening. And thanks, everybody. catch us next time when we talk about the habit of self care. Yeah, follow us on our socials look for leading well on Facebook and tracks down there. We usually post a link to the new podcast there and you can interact with us there. Yeah. And if you want to dig deeper, you can find us on the other socials as well individually. So have a good one. Thanks again, everybody. Thanks, everybody.